Feedback is not detailed or actionable. Don't spend so much time worrying about the next notch on the ladder: your goal should be to learn new things, to get something cool done and to find things to do that are fun for you.2. People who get stuck at the plateau are often referred to as disillusioned learners. Tips for getting them on your side:1) Ask for Exceeded. Great post! You can wait 24 months to gain all the credibilty & visibilty & trust again that needs to intersect precisely with your new leaderships ability to argue you on the stack proficiently. "Well please don't just tease us and leave it there. I would lay some level of accountability with management as well, though. You're selling it in no less than eight different SKUs, (including the upgrades) and your marketing message is deliberately obfuscated to convince the customers to go for the most expensive one. Saturday, November 15, 2008. During the start-up boom, I considered leaving. Next, advertise your new branching strategy in your peer groups. Make sure you have chosen commitments that you can exceed, and that you deliver visible and significant value to your business and customers. You want to test more cases than he does, you want to build something that draws users to what you're doing more than to his.You're never competing with your manager. Bowl Leader. If you do not market yourself well, even if you are a superstar here at MSFT, your achievements might just go unrecognized (or they might be selectively recognized). I've achieved level 65 in a field technical role and it wasn't that hard. Sign up on LinkedIn and join the Microsoft Employees or ex-MSFT employees groups and then you'll see them posted. Your response is private Was this worth your time? I've seen some extremely senior developers propose solutions to problems, but be totally unconvincing. I am currently going to school which should help the moves to a better position. Is that a req. Mini: Great topic! Therefore, you are an HR manager. SAP, Go to company page To change Microsoft so that it is small and efficient, and therefore more in line with your thinking?Are you changing your stance because you're leaving the 'hoi polloi' behind? Mini could you please confirm or deny this. Director can be just principal in sales or marketing. And to your skip level. I suggest understanding why it is "No" first, truthfully accepting the point-of-view as pissed off as it may make you, and then having a self-directed action-plan to get on track. So, for those of you who are in orgs where it's 'easy' to get to L63 or L64 - think about transferring out BEFORE you get too high a level and paint yourself into a corner. I was probably at risk of topping out at level 62 or 63 at one point but worked hard to change my brand and good things happened as a result. It can help you identify blind spots which may be holding you back.7. Over the years, we have acted as a preferred talent acquisition partner to. Managers plan out promotion timeframes far in advance. There are the clear execptions and I think you can see this more on the engineering side than sales and marketing.One other piece of advice - be mindful of the impression you make on your bosses peers and others in senior levels of the organizations. A Principal-level employee at Microsoft is someone who drives strategic efforts in their area of expertise. the answer is simple - take on more. Amazon Eventually, their team will remove itself from his control through internal transfers to teams with better managers, and the asshole ends up getting canned in a re-org if he doesn't see the writing on the wall and use his Apple resume entry to jump to some other company.The fact that you praise someone for "junk yard dog mode" shows me that Microsoft has a fundamentally broken corporate culture, and that you are part of the problem.-jcr, Think of the guy in the other companyI don't like where this is goingThat is the guy to beat.No, No, NO!Think of the customer, not the competition! One of the key lessons is to know who is the gate keeper for your career. Levels are different outside the US. > What if you and your manager are at the same level L62. Wish I this post and comments laminated about 10 years ago after I wasn't going to get rich off stock.My comment to add is to those who are put into situations of continual reorgs and want to achieve the 'Senior'. Be the Rosh Gadol Microsoftie. I call B.S. The Job titles for this position are: Software Development Engineer SDE Microsoft Compensation Software Engineer $ 80K $ 225K Average Compensation: $101,338 Senior Cloud Software Engineer $ 90K $ 175K Average Compensation: $128,000 Principal Software Engineer $ 90K. Know when your market worth changes with our verified salaries newsletter, See exactly how much your competitors pay. Folks, Im really encouraged by this post and the focus on trying to help make others great. You want to test more cases than he does, you want to build something that draws users to what you're doing more than to his.Having part of the bonus be for how the team succeeded relative to the other teams might focus competition towards the competition and not exclusively on co-workers.Add up the review scores of each team member and rank teams. Barring extraordindary circumstances each year you will get the "welcome to our group" evaluation.Don't forget the aunts and uncles. By then I had already already set up several clients as in independent consultant, so I declined to stay. Nobody will be shy of firing you if you make a big mess. Who cut and paste buggy shit all over the codebase and don't know some of the things that a good L62 should know. Unless you plan to stay in the same org the rest of the time at MS. ?I work in MSN and we still have no way to know the levels of our peers. Today's top 83,000+ Senior Director jobs in United States. I am working towards it would say am there 75% of the way. Successful people looooove to expound upon the secret to their success. Its a bit like the famous phrase about the definition of obscenity. Sorry for going dark for so long. Oh, please. Learning Curves and Disillusioned Learners: psychologists have known for years that skill acquisition tends to follow a typical learning curve. This means there are 24 distinct job levels at Microsoft. Write it down in a team-culture career section you keep in OneNote (start that section now if you don't have it). You can work hard and grind it out. Then I would get emails rating my abilities in these areas that I had no input into it and any replies rebutting it would go unanswered. But good leadership at the top can make visibility a positive thing for the person getting it and for the org who sees the person getting it. And we have the budget for it. She partners very closely with colleagues to develop and drive the people strategy across the UK GEO. I have also always looked for those problems (opportunities). Chris Capossela. When I gave notice, my PUM was in my office within an hour showing me stock levels at 65 and 66, willing to restructure my position pretty much to my liking. A mentor helps tremendously. So once again, a big part of your job is learning how to become a ninja at firguring out what your management wants from you -- even when they haven't articulated it in any kind of measurable way -- and then doing it. Microsoft is so unique (and not in a good way) that you need to have blogs like this and focus on managing your career inside the hobbesian nightmare, rather than making good and cool software. Do a search for people in those groups in NYC area and check their status to see who is hiring. Thank goodness for this blog, where MS employees are free to talk about their personal struggles, unlike "other" blogs that censor/prohibit such discussions, so that they can live in some fantasy land and avoid dealing with the real issues. And to your boss. The general consensus is why get rid of someone who is happy doing their job and can do it better than anyone else. This is the multiplier effect, or scope of influence that is often mentioned. I think it's safe to say that I "own" the group of people under L63 in my group, but I usually take that as an opportunity for mentorship as opposed to an opportunity to poach someone else's cool project. I'm not even thinking about level 63 at this point. Discussion: First off, I'm going to be hard-core about comments here. I've been at the same level for 3.5 years (since I joined MSFT), and while I spent three of those in a group where almost noone at all got promoted (a group which has since essentially dissolved), I'm concerned that my level stagnation reflects poorly on me, even though I've been the major contributor on products that have earned 10x my total compensation package for MSFT. B.Sc in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, M.Sc in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, PhD in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, Designing and implementing Software and Hardware Systems, Benchmarking and validating Software and Hardware Systems, Developing innovative solutions and publish papers and patents, Managing teams and keep track of progress, Predicting market trends, identifying market risks, Identifying future opportunities, preparing company roadmap. What advice do you need? I haven't seen one single person getting hired below L63 in my group during last year. I have had 3 positions in the past 8 years and best advise i can give is NETWORKING. Ready? Here's some advice from a recent L64'er (L63 last year). The CSPs are a good attempt to define each level, but anyone who is looking at the CSPs and saying I do that, and that, , but Im not getting promoted is almost certainly missing the point. I came in at 58 (9) and having been through a) I wish I had gone through b). Wow. as many others posters said: if you are worry too much about promotion chances are you will keep worrying. You forgot "never ask for a promotion".The one other thing that helped me go from L59 through >L64 was an absolute dedication to the strongest leaders, one level at a time. This past year I had what I thought was an outstanding year, was given a 20%, but not promoted to L63. What do you do when your manager is an absolute b***h, a disgrace in meetings with other teams and an embarrassment on her good days? don't make enemies), change jobs about once every 3-4 years, and do your job reasonably wellfor a decade. You will not know the difference.Steve Steve Steve given the state of the company, are you sure you don't have anything else more urgent to do? The first levels came quickly with some sticking around 64 and 65 (half my career).I have always taken on and fixed problem areas that no one else wants to take on. The level of scrutiny by my management chain creasedup to the point where leader of our group4 levels above me in the management chain had to approve the promotion. The "how" now has broader impact. If you can learn to do this you become incredibly valuable.5. Great post Mini. Seems like "director" in Microsoft is not really a level like it is in google or fb (not sure what it means). I started at 59 and just got promoted to 63 a couple months ago. Advice from anyone at Microsoft for 10+ years is great to hear, but hard to follow. Any tips will be greatly helpful. If the answer for you is "No" and you don't like that, well, what are you going to do? After that, I was given a team that was in trouble quality wise 6 months before shipping. I am a HR manager. Ability to solve problems independently is bad because if you don;t ask for help it reduces your visibility. What does that look like in your mind? But if your manager is undervaluing your work, and *that* is the factor that is making you unhappy, you can fix that. These guys are typically outcome of recent hiring sprees. I'm interested in reading your perspective and what advice you'd give to someone new to the company looking at a career path similar to your own. There is an over lap in all levels when you move across companies with m:n map. On the subject of switching teams: It's completely possible to move up by being really good exactly where you are, in most cases. Impossible. However L64 takes some time and L65 is very difficult. We've negotiated thousands of offers and regularly achieve $30k+ (sometimes $300k+) increases. senior director - $446k . The microsoft people have already decided you're not a good 'fit'. Leadership: pro-active leadership that convinces team members of the future direction and even helps to . Levels.fyi gives different levels for Microsoft v amazon depending on pm or dev. BG for a big PG in a medium/large sub)L63 = director, then onwards to GM etc62->63 is a tough jump where you need to take ownership for a business segmentYou can go up to L60 pretty easily by nailing commitments year on year and showing you can thrive on increased responsibility, after that it gets harder and you need to proactively lead and drive results that impact the wider business significantly.If you're in sales, it's pretty much all about the total quota you influenceIn my experience, my advice is:- network and help make other groups successful (ideally in a win/win context)- be proactive, propose and grab new challenges and be successful with them- deliver against the CSP's/commitments for the next level up, when you have mastered the current level- make your boss look good, and make his/her boss look good. We had a strategic plan for getting me the visibility with the higher-ups that I needed.My promotion to Level 65 during the last annual review period was clearly the hardest. There is only one item in this list: visibility. You may see lots of other people being jerks around you, but trust me, people remember when you are the nice, dependable, smart one.5. . an ex-manager used to tell me, if the org needs him to sweep the floor, he would ensure that he would be the best sweeper in the world (no offense to my janitor friends, just an expression). (1) Oh, please. Dont compete with them. Rather nice site you've got here. Is there a way one can dream of getting promoted in this noxious environment which is the oabg? The conclusion: its price today! You may not need them to get from 59->60, but if you're good at them, it'll make your rise much quicker. I work in MSN and we still have no way to know the levels of our peers. You might be too smart or have ideas that come from somewhere outside of Redmond which makes you very dangerous and not Microsoft material. What are other groups doing? You havent [sic] seen nothing [sic] yet. Joined MCS at level 60 and was immediately told that L61 would be years away. but I have to disagree with this statement.While it is true that it is difficult for managers to say what *exactly* an employee should do to get to the next level, it *should not* be impossible to list what experiences/qualities/results will qualify him to be a *strong* candidate for promotion to the next level.And this should not be that difficult - it is just a matter of syncing up with the peer leads, and dev manager, and discussing what their perception of an L63 is vs l62. I've seen L65's who can't own a cardboard box, let alone a room. For technical and management track, the job level start from 57 and continues till 80. I will mis-direct and confuse you with hearsay. They took credit for work done by others (#2 helps).Seriously, they only way to separate the wheat from the chaff in this company is to allow to interview without notifying the manager. Would they give you the level if you were not already a Microsoft employee? Bottom line: Dont be shy of asking for promotions during internal transfers. Do it nicely. Nowadays, having been there and moved up, I would highly prefer someone that already succeeded as a Lead at Microsoft than a star individual contributor. You have to enjoy it, or else it'll come across as insincere, and you'll do a half assed job. Chairman of the Board, Microsoft Corporation. I'm interested in reading your perspective and what advice you'd give to someone new to the company looking at a career path similar to your own.
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